Connor Johnson, John Hayes, and David Damico describe their experiences in law enforcement as members of the LGBTQ+ community.
“It’s hard to do with the whole entire department too, you know, but it’s a discussion that you have to have with each person every single time it happens. And then, you know, when the gender changes if they’re like, “Okay, yeah, we still slip up,” and I always tell everyone, you know, I told my family this, I tell all the guys in the department, it’s not just a transition for me it’s a transition for everybody.”
Annotations
Learn More: Kristin Lam, “LGBT Police Officers Say They’ve Faced Horrible Discrimination, and Now They’re Suing,” USA TODAY, February 8, 2019.
Learn More [2]: “LGBTQ Law Enforcement Liaisons,” Garden State Equality, 2019.
Learn More [3]: Jim Salter, “Experts: Leadership Key to Changing Anti-Gay Police Culture,” AP NEWS, November 27, 2019, sec. Police.
Learn More: Anna Orso, “After Keeping Her in a Men’s Prison for 17 Months, N.J. Will Move Transgender Inmate to Women’s Facility,” The Philadelphia Inquirer, August 29, 2019, sec. New Jersey News.
Learn More [2]: Stephenie King, “The Criminal Justice System’s Mistreatment of Transgender Individuals: A Call for Policy Reform to Assist a Marginalized Prisoner Community,” Inquiries Journal 11, no. 01 (2019).
Learn More: Anna Orso, “N.J. Police to Be Trained in Updated Policy for Interacting with Trans People, Attorney General Announces,” The Philadelphia Inquirer, November 20, 2019, sec. News.
Learn More [2]: Colleen O’Dea, “NJ Police Get New Guidelines, Training on Interacting with Transgender People,” NJ Spotlight News, November 21, 2019.
Learn More [3]: S.P. Sullivan, “N.J. Agreed to Put Transgender Inmate in Women’s Prison. Not so Fast, Say Officers’ Unions.,” NJ.Com, September 11, 2019.
Learn More [4]: “The Importance of Trans-Sensitive Police Policies and Practices,” The Policy Project: NYU School of Law, November 27, 2019.
Transcript
Interview conducted by John Keller and Chrissy Briskin
New Brunswick, New Jersey
February 18, 2019
Transcription by Rafael Lozada
Annotations by Samantha Resnick
00:00:00
JK: This is John Keller with coLAB Arts and The Rutgers Oral History Archive. It is February 18th at basically four o'clock in the afternoon. We're located at coLAB Arts at 9 Bayard street in New Brunswick, New Jersey. I am joined by a fellow interviewer….
CB: Chrissy Briskin
JK: And we're doing a three person oral history today, um, and I will allow the subjects to introduce themselves. You wanna start with you Connor?
CJ: Sure! I'm Connor Johnson, I'm an officer with the Morristown VR police and yeah–
JK: Perfect!
JH: John Hayes. I'm Lieutenant with the New Jersey State police. I am The LGBTQ liaison and I'm in roughly my twenty-fourth year in law enforcement.
DD: And if I may add, John is the first openly gay male state trooper in the state police, the history of the state police, and Connor is the first openly transgender officer that we're aware of in the state of New Jersey, so those are milestones. My name is Dave Damico. I am currently the chief investigator for the Middlesex County Department of Corrections and Youth Services although I am very fortunate to oversee—with John—the Garden State equality's LGBTQ law enforcement liaison program, which is a group of law enforcement officers from across the state that have a passion, um, and are represented– representative of their Department to go out and build bridges of trust between community, uh, between the LGBTQ plus community and Law enforcement.
JK: Excellent thank you all so much for that introduction. Um– so ah– as I mentioned before we’ll just kind of start at the beginning and if you want to give a little bit of background of where you are from. Connor maybe you want to start. Where were you born and raised?
CJ: So I was born in Morristown, New Jersey. I lived in Morris Plains for basically my whole life, um, yeah– I went to Morristown High School. I– from there I went to Centenary College which is now Centenary University, and I graduated with a criminal justice degree and a– history minor. Don't ask me why– just liked history I guess but, um, from there I, uh– I started dispatching for Morris County telecommunications in 2000, uh, let me get this right I think in, uh, 2011. Yeah and then, uh, after about eleven months of that I started with the Morris County Correctional Facility, and was there for about three and a half years, and then I was hired with the Morristown VR police in 2016 * so–
JK: Great CJ: A little brief history *
JK: Do you mind sharing what year you were born?
CJ: Uh, 1986. JK: 86.
*not discernable*: Baby.
The Room: hahahaha
CJ: I, uh, I think I'm old. Actually, I was born April 2nd of last year–
The Room: hahahah
CJ: When I got my surgery.
The Room: hahaha
DD: Ah, there you go! I like that! CB: Great!
CJ: It’s my second birthday. JH: That's good. Good.
00:03:00
JK: Great. So you are mainly from the Morristown area. Are there any– any– any, uh, family legends or stories around the day of your birth?
CJ: Oh, around the day of my birth?
JK: Yeah, yeah
CJ: Um, I don't think so. Um, I I was actually– when I was born I was named after my grandmother who had, uh, passed away a few months earlier. So my– my birth name was Claire Mannion Johnson. So my name was actually on a tombstone my whole life, um, which was a weird–
The Room: ( hahaha)
CJ: –realization that I came up with when, uh, when I– in 2009 when my grandfather passed away, and he was buried next to her, and I was like “Oh my gosh that's my name!” Like– um, not anymore though. Um, but yeah I mean I– I had a good– I had a good childhood you know– a little lost but you know it was still good. My parents were– um, you know– pretty much hippies. My dad was a professional ballet dancer, uh, for a while and then he went to Rutgers when he realized that that wasn't lucrative enough to raise a family. Um, and my mother is just– outstanding person just really accepting. Always kind of let us do whatever we– whatever we– you know– express ourselves however we wanted so–
JK: Any siblings?
CJ: Yes! I have– I have, um– I have two sisters and a brother. Uh, my brother is eleven years younger than me. He's currently a student at Montclair State University; he's actually gay, um, so you have a trans guy and then a gay kid, um, in the same family. So needless to say we're pretty open– uh, my fam– my parents are pretty accepting of everything so it’s good yeah.
JK: Alright, thank you for sharing! How about you John? Where were you born and raised?
JH: Born in Somers Point, New Jersey. September 8th, 1976. I'll date myself. Um, grew up between Atlantic County and Cape May County. And my parents divorced when I was roughly about 10 years old and, uh, right after that I knew I wanted to get into law enforcement 'cause I think law enforcement chose me. I don't think I chose law enforcement. Um, my house was burglarized around Christmas time, and the burglar stole our Christmas presents. So the Police Department, uh, showed up, they did the investigation, they treated my family with the utmost respect, and we actually got some new Christmas presents under the tree from the Police Department. So right then and there I kind of had a little love in my eye for for police work and I'm like you know this is something that that– that– that's something– that's gonna be me, and from that day on I just knew what I wanted to do, so I was very lucky. Um, eighteen years old, I became a special police officer in Sea Isle City, worked there for a couple years, moved onto the West Cape May Police Department, down in Cape May County. Did a short stint there– Went on to Longport Police Department, in Atlantic County, as a police officer and, um, about 2000, I went into the state police. I grew up in a state police area so we never had local police, it was always just us stateties– so that's kind of what I knew I wanted to do since we had state police. Um, and have been in law enforcement ever since so–
JK: What was the– you said you kind of, at ten years old, you had that that that notion of it. Did you set yourself on a specific track? Or did you articulate that desire to others?
JH: OH yeah. My family pretty much knew, you know, from knee high what I wanted to do. I was very blessed to actually have a direction and obtain my goals. You know I went. I was a police officer at eighteen, fully sworn in at nineteen, I couldn't even buy ammo yet but I could carry a gun. Um, and uh– for that– it's just– it was very different because I didn't have college so I put myself through college. I eventually got my master’s degree in Administrative Science. Um, so I put myself through college while I was working full time so, that was good–
JK: Okay. How about you?
DD: Well, so I'm the oldest one here. So I am– I– I was born February 1st, 1970, at Muhlenberg Hospital in Plainfield. I'm a Jersey guy my entire life. Uh, lived most of my life between Plainfield, North Plainfield, South Plainfield and Piscataway, as a child, and I knew that I wanted to become a police officer at five years old. Up until that point, my hero was Batman and, uh, so I wanted to be Batman but at 5 years old, uh, because my mother and father divorced and my grandfather and grandmother were taking care of us, um, while my mother worked, uh, I was playing with my grandmother on the living room floor—we call it the parlor floor—and, uh, we were watching Batman and my grandfather came home and I was extremely excited that he was coming home. I heard his Buick pull up into the driveway, and my grandmother became very nervous. And so we both ran to the kitchen where was the entrance of the house and my grandmother started to prepare dinner and I greeted my grandfather. And well my grandfather entered but he wasn't happy that dinner wasn't ready. And that started an argument between my grandmother and my grandfather which became extremely violent and at some point my grandfather was assaulting my grandmother– and ,uh, in the door, out of nowhere, came a South Plainfield police officer. I don't know how he got called, I don't know–
Well I knew that my grandfather was using a telephone to assault my grandmother so maybe the phone off the hook or the operator hearing it summoned the police to the house but nevertheless a South Plainfield police officer came in and stopped my grandmother from being assaulted and never arrested my grandfather. And so there were different domestic violence laws back then. And so at that moment, um, I said that's my hero. Batman did not become my hero and that cop became my hero so if you ever visit my home, or look through photographs of me growing up, every single Halloween I was dressed up as a cop and my focus has always been: I wanna be that cop, I wanna be that hero that helps people– families and helps save somebody's life.
00:08:50
So, fast forward and I hit puberty and I realized that I'm different. I didn't know what gay was, I didn't– there was no gay definition for me but I knew that I was attracted to other boys my age and not other girls. And so– but I also knew that I always wanted to be in law enforcement. I was Catholic; I was raised by an Italian-Polish family so we had family values and religious values, and I knew that gay wasn't okay. So when I realized what gay was—and I realized who I was—I always kept it a secret and, uh, that keeping it a secret went all the way into me becoming a police officer. I was lucky enough– this is my thirty-first year in law enforcement. I was lucky enough to be hired first by the State Department of Corrections, um, and I went through the Academy, and I was assigned to a prison in New Jersey and I was hiding it and I was lying to everybody about who I was. And telling lies. Anybody that has to tell lies knows that that becomes very difficult because, in order to keep on doing that, you have to keep on telling lies.
So, there was one day– and I came out out of anger. There was one day that I was sitting in the officers dining room of the prison, and we were eating, and I was on my break and there was another officer sitting next to me. We were friends; we graduated the Academy together and he knew me and I knew him, and we depended on each other for backup. Well, there was a inmate that walked across the corridor, which you could see the corridor through the gates, and the officer stopped eating that was next to me, stood up, pointed to the inmate and said “look at that fucking faggot and that's why God created AIDS and all fags are going to die from AIDS.” So– and the officer sat back down to start to continue to eat his dinner and so I at that moment– I was like whoa– I didn't know what to do. I was scared, I was nervous, I was angry. I was filled with emotion but the one thing I was determined to do is never to come back to that jail. So at that moment, I decided that I was going to throw away that law enforcement career and that I wasn't going to do that anymore. So I went home, and in a true Dave Damico fashion, I drove to the airport, got a ticket to Puerto Rico, and went on a vacation. And– but I never told the jail that I quit. I just hung my uniform up in the locker and left. And so, um, we didn't have cell phones back then, right? Or they did but I wasn't rich enough to afford one–
But long story short, the chief at the time called my answering machine. And I had an apartment in Jersey city and he said on the answer he left a very brief message, “Kid, your whopped.” Now whopped back then meant without pay and you can't say that now, obviously it is a derogatory term, but I was AWOL, I never called. And he said, “If you're not back in my office or at the jail by Monday, you're fired.” And I wasn't going about to be fired. So I flew back, I went to the jail and I handed him my badge and my ID card thinking that he would accept it, and he wouldn't. So at that moment, an argument ensued between me and the chief about me wanting to quit and him trying to convince me not to. And he reminded me of all the things, “You’re 19.” At the time, I was 19 years old, just like John. “You’re 19, and at 44 you can have a full pension.” He told me I was one of the best cops he had in the jail. He told me, you know, “Why would you leave this? It’s a good paying–” Gave me all the reasons of why not to quit, and he wouldn't let me quit. And finally, to get out of that office, I said, “and I'm gay,” thinking that that would be, “alright, get outta here, you're gone kid.” Because, remember, this was 1989, it wasn’t okay to be gay. There was no Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, there was no media attention around homosexuality, or being gay, or– And it definitely wasn't okay to be gay in law enforcement, and it definitely wasn't okay to be gay in corrections in law enforcement which is a whole different animal. So, he said, “So what?” And at the time I was like, now what do I do?
The room: hahahaha
00:12:42
DD: So– so he said, “So what, who cares,” and he reminded me again about all the things. He says, “I'll tell you what. Your sexual orientation doesn't define you, nor does mine define me, and you'll be back here.” So I came back, and I was suspended for five days for being AWOL and to consequences to my breaking policy, but I came back. And of course, everybody wanted to know where I was, because there was rumors all circulating. So, at that moment I stood in front of a line up, in front of sixty of my fellow officers, and I came out and I came out of anger. And interestingly enough, with the exception of some very close friends, uh, and intimate relationships, nobody knew I was gay. I didn't tell my family, I didn't tell anybody. These cops, on that day, was the first time I came out and I came out because of anger. And on that day I learned a lot. I learned there were some cops that’d never talk to me again. But always backed me up, they just never had a conversation with me again. There were other cops that shook my hand and said I had more balls than anybody else. And then there were other cops that thought I was lying. They really thought, “there is no way that you could be gay, you’re making all this up as an excuse for something.” So– anyway–
JK: What do you think that excuse was?
DD: I–
JK: What do you think it was that– that– that wasn't– that they weren't able to process it?
DD: I, you know, I really don't know. When thinking back at it, I just think that, um, maybe it was because I was– you know there was an excuse for being suspended or being out or being in trouble, or that it was going to, in some way, shape or form, make my career advance or get better. I don't know. But, um, nevertheless, right after that line up broke, interestingly enough, the inmate population found out that I was gay, and I was not prepared for what was going to happen next. There were inmates walking up to me saying, “Don't worry, D, we got your back.” Now, you know, in the field of law enforcement, and these are convicted felons, these are folks who have gone through the court system and been found guilty and they were pedophiles. So the majority of them were sexual predators, this was at ADTC that I was working at, I didn't expect this. And long story short is, that, um– that day I started to come out to everybody. And I was lucky enough, after leaving corrections, I was in Asbury Park police officer for about seven years—police officer detective—where I went into that being openly gay. Um, then I was a detective with the Monmouth County prosecutor's office where my main responsibility was the investigation and prosecution of biased incidents and biased crimes and community relations. And then I retired in 2016, um, I was done. I moved to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and, uh, sunny places and beach and warm weather, and I got bored. And within four months I applied, and was accepted, and I became a deputy Sheriff of Broward Sheriff's Office. Four months on that job, um, I got pulled back, and was recruited back here to be the chief of their internal affairs investigator section in Middlesex County. Then I got a phone call from Christian Fuscarino, the executive director of Garden State Equality, to sit down with me and talk about his vision of putting together the liaison program. And that's how that all happened. So, um, I'm lucky enough to be the president of the New Jersey Bias Crime Officer Association, and I also am a professor, adjunct professor, at two colleges: Brookdale Community College and Kingsborough, where I teach criminal justice.
JH: Do you want to tell him the real reason why you left Broward?
DD: Well there's a lot of reasons–
JK: Summer in Florida?
The Room: hahaha
DD: And you know, there was other things. Oh yeah, I do not look good in dark green.
The room: hahaha JH: That’s the reason why– DD: that's the ugliest uniform I’ve ever seen in my life.
JH: I've known him 20 ye– 20 years– probably over 20 years. That's the reason why he left.
00:16:26
DD: And John would remind me– reminded me, that there were other things that happened in my career. I had a Sergeant who told me to, “take off my fucking uniform off because he didn’t want a faggot in his Department.” I had a lieutenant drive around with me in my patrol car for eight hours instead of supervising everybody. He, uh, read me excerpts of the bible. He was born again Christian, I have nothing against born again Christians, but he felt though– as though– as if it was his responsibility to change me and to make me see the light. And then you know– I had– I was also not backed up at one situation where backup didn't respond as quick as they should have. And, uh, I feel as though it was because I was gay or they said because I was, “screaming like a bitch on the radio.” So there's a lot of things that happened leading up to– to, uh, having the opportunity to work with such a great team of professionals and rebuilding bridges of trust between community and law enforcement because it definitely is broken. And there's a lot of reasons why that bridge of trust is broken specific to the LGBTQ+ community. We talk about it often going all the way back to Stonewall, but, you know, law enforcement is a paramilitary organization and it's male dominated a profession. And even today, in 2020, even though we are working on becoming more diverse, we're still a male dominated profession. And, um, so its– although we think that we've gotten over this– it's, uh, this homophobia, maybe transphobia now, uh– we haven't and there's a lot of ignorance. And so it’s our job to educate because what we're trying to– what we're trying to do is just get our colleagues to understand what it's like to walk a day in our shoes. But what we're also trying to do is make our departments represent the community that we serve. So we recruit, we talk to other officers about LGBT civilians about signing up and taking the test. We built bridges of trust by doing the seminars where we had the opportunity to meet you, uh, and do a community outreach. We work collectively with all law enforcement agencies including the AG's office on policies and procedures and directives. So we're fully involved and passionate, our team, about doing what we do. And we're very lucky to have Connor as part of our team because I can tell anybody about what it's like to walk in a gay guy’s shoes. I have no idea what it's like to walk in a transgender person’s shoes let alone a transgender officer’s shoes. I also don't know what it's like to be the first openly gay male in a state police organization, which is the top law enforcement agency in the state and again values and norms and customs and traditions–
JH: Culture–
DD: – And culture that doesn't accept gay, and definitely transgender. So we're kind of like breaking all kinds of barriers and bridges here to try to educate our colleagues about what we're trying to do and why we're trying to do it.
JK: Great! thank you! Uh, you– you were, uh–
CJ: Grandmother... DD: Grandmother.
The room: Uh, (hahahahaha)
JK: You– you kind of articulated the story about the coming out moment, um, and I was curious if you wanted to talk anything about that. About like the coming out moment into then going into law enforcement, like what it is that? I mean so–
JH: Coming out on a job? Or actually coming out as a person?
JK: Yes
JH: So which, which one?
JK: Whichever came first. In terms of sequence of events, obviously if you are coming out you’re coming out generally, but, um, the– you talked about coming out professionally first, and then it's like– is that– did that then immediately open the door for your personal life to shift, but, you know– and maybe you want to think about that first or–
00:20:20
JH: Well its easy for me, uh, I definitely came out, uh, personally first. Um, I was a– I knew probably right around 10 years old, I keep going back to 10 years old, that I was different; that I had an attraction to boys. At 12 years old, um, I had an, uh, interest I would say– We played high school toget– high school football, baseball, middle school, um, and from 12 to 18, we were best friends but also we were intimate. Uh, at 18 years old, he became depressed and committed suicide. So that's my dealing with suicide and stuff like that and I'm very passionate with suicide awareness right now because of that. Um, after that I became a police officer, and went in the state police eventually, and actually met my ex spouse, and my ex spouse was abusive verbally and emotionally. I was not out on the job, so I couldn't call the police, so I was trapped. And I remember getting my– my partner at the time actually spit in my face and said if I can kill you and get away with it I will. He actually threatened my life. And I'm not– I don't consider myself a victim because I'm the person that would really just love to beat the living crap out of you, but I couldn't do it because my job. OK? We are held to a higher standard. And because I couldn't come out– what do I do? And so I call people like Dave and another friend and I'm like, “I need to sleep on your sofa because I can't stay at my house.” Um, because of that whole situation, I moved from Cape May to Ocean, Monmouth County area, so I was you know 80 miles away from my parents. They didn't know what was going on and that's what I said to my parents. I said, “Hey listen, I gotta tell you something. You know my friend who I'm living with we’re actually together– I’m gay.” And my mother who reminds me of Debbie Novotny from Queer as Folk, to a T. Um, I thought she'd be amazing 'cause she worked in the casino industry, she had drag queen friends– She actually asked me, you know , “who did this to [me] and why don't we see a therapist?” So she took it a little differently. Uh, my father actually—biker, looks like the guy from Duck Dynasty: long long ponytail, long long beard, tattoos up and down—flat out said, um, “OK, you're my son, I love you no matter what. Where is the son of a bitch at? I'm going to kill him.” So totally different reaction! I thought my mom would take it great, my father would take it hard, and it was completely reversed. You know, and my mom and dad were divorced at the time so it was definitely different for me. And so then on the job, I slowly became friends with a local police officer and another police officer, Dave and everything else, and we had a little support group and–
JK: How did you all find each other?
JH: Believe it or not, actually at a house party.
DD: Gaydar! JH: A gaydar–
DD: Yeah it just goes off when you are right next to each other–
JK: Hahahaha
JH: Yeah, back then there was no apps, there was no cell phones or stuff like that. We were actually at a house party and it was a gay officer’s party that, uh, I met some of my closest friends still to this day. And I remember, um, you know I said, Dave, I said, “You know, obviously I'm gay,” and he kind of like brought me to a couple events– And then he said, “Listen. You are coming with me, you're going to go to Asbury Park pride, and we're going to be community outreach and we're going to recruit.” Like so I sent a letter up to our Colonel at the time and said, “Hey listen you know–”
JK: Around when was this?
DD: Uh, this was, lets see–
JH: I think 2008.
DD: Yeah like 8 or 9. JH: Yeah.
DD: Well I could tell you this– JH: before 8 DD: Corzine was governor.
JH: 2008 is when it actually happened, so probably around 2006 let's say. So I've been a trooper say four years. Um, and next thing you know, I said, “Hey listen Colonel, I really want to do a community outreach event,” didn’t tell him what it was for though. “Yeah go ahead, go ahead, go do what you gotta do.” So, he brings me there– we, you know– kiss baby, shake hands. And next thing you know the governor's there in 2008. We do it in 2007, 2008. 2008, Corzine is there, state police executive protection is there. State police sees me and I'm like, “Oh my God if they don't see me I don't see them.” I’m like I'm trying to hide because I was not out. Um, and then Dave who's, you know, the Godmother of all officers, is well known and he goes up on stage in front of 10,000 people. 10,000 people at Jersey Pride back to, you know, twelve or thirteen years ago and says, “I want to introduce you to the first openly gay male state trooper.” I was backstage BSing and I'm like, “What?!" And I’m like, “Oh, yep there it goes–”
DD: And I'm like so embarrassed by that because, you know, when you're doing that– you are not realizing. I didn't– I didn't do that–there was no intent to out him there. We– I mean– I thought he was out– becau– I didn't think he was out with the state police. I just thought he was out and I thought that, you know, I was just so proud that the state police–
00:25:06
The Room: Hahahaha DD: Were there– JH: If I was standing next to him, I was out. Believe me.
DD: Exactly. Exactly! You know, we've done this now for three or four years and he's in uniform. I didn't– I didn't realize it would have the effect that it had. I really didn’t. And especially on John and I would have never done that if it did– But! So many great things hap– came– so many really good things came from that day. It really did.
JK: And so– so– and he– that outing moment happens in front of 10,000 people–
JH: Yeah, he pushed me over the edge– I'm actually very thankful for it 'cause he gave me that push I really needed, you know, and to be true to myself and who I was as a person, as a human being. And you know, with that said I'm like well, guess what, now people are going to hear rumors– I want them to hear them from me. And so we had a very tight knit unit and I went to my boss– I say, “Hey listen, just so you know, just in case you hear rumors, it's true I'm gay.” Um, he did take it that well– and so that's okay, no big deal– but I wanted to tell my sergeants at the time and my one sergeant was a born again Christian. He was– I was so nervous to tell him because– just because of the religious background. And I tell you what, you know, when I when I sat him down I said, “Hey listen, just so you know I'm gay.” And he says, “John, I don't care what you do in your private life,” he says, “but, I'll go through a door with you any day.” Because we work in a tactical unit, a fugitive unit—rotation, murders are all day long—and we're in a lot of stressful situations. He flat out says, “I don't care you're, my brother.” So that was– and– and– for all the leadership in– in– in the state police, that's basically what happened. You know, they knew me as a cop, they knew my work ethic, they knew I could handle myself 'cause we always have to prove ourselves. You know, heaven forbid you're gay and, you know, you have to be masculine– So, um, it was just very blessing. I was very blessed to be in that position where they already knew me. They knew who I was. So for me it was a little different than– than Dave–
DD: And– and, if I may add, you know, that I think that's the same thing that both John and I went through when Chief Swol (?) was telling me, “You're a good cop, you are one of the best cops I have. I don't care about your sexual orientation,” he was basically saying the same thing. It was like, “If you're a cop, and a good cop, I don't– I don't want to know, nor do I care about what you do privately, as long as you're a good cop.” And so that coming out is– for John is different because he came out already, but then you gotta come out again. So for us, a lot of times we're continually coming out all the time. Every time I teach a recruit class at the police academy I'm coming out. One of the things for me–
00:27:33
JH: Every time you are transferred–
DD: Right, every time you get transferred. Every time you go into a different Department and quickly and briefly I'll say that was one of my struggles going into the Broward County Sheriff's Office because my first field training deputy was a born again Christian. And I went right back into the closet. To this day, Broward County Sheriff's Office does not know that I was gay. I never told them. Because I was scared to; I didn't want to come out. I wanted to prove myself as a good deputy before I told them that I was the gay deputy. So it was– it was a struggle, it wasn't easy. And you know– and then this came up so I left here. So I don't want to take any more time up–
JH: And it isn’t that amazing?
DD: Yeah! And it happens all the time. And we are pushed back in all the time. Every time I teach a recruit class at the academy I'm pushed back in until I come out and tell them. Because none of us, none of us, fit any of the stereotypes about what the community has been told that LGBTQ officers are like. We don't fit the stereotypes. We are not feminine. We are not, uh– we are not a florist. We don't work as airline steward, right? I don't dress up in females’ clothing– I don't fit the stereotypes that that the community has been taught about gay men. But! Obviously I don't have a six pack-, I'm not like Mr. handsome when I walked in the room, I'm not Ken doll– But! You know, um, it still hurts when when you hear the things considering the people that do still fit the stereotype. You know what I mean because in those persons’ minds, that is stereotype drawn and they might be talking or saying something in front of me not knowing, and then they find out and they are like, “Ugh! But you're not one of them. You're not that person, you're different.”
JH: I think teaching a class, if we're– if we're with recruits or anybody, I think the average stereotype for the recruit is Jack from Will & Grace. That's what they see. They see it on TV and that's what they equate somebody being gay is Jack from Will & Grace, probably the easiest way for me to say.
DD: Yeah– yeah–
JK: Do you find yourselves- I mean you're obviously in education now, right? You're working in education capacities. How do you bridge that? How do you– so if there's a delineation and it's like you know the– the chief, right? The story about the chief saying to you, “I don't care because I already know you're a good cop.” Well then how do you bridge the next part of it which is like but then we should be recruiting people who we already know are gay because they have the potential to be a good cop.
JH: And–
JK: Is that a disconnect that exists in the culture?
DD: Well I'll tell you what I believe. JH: Used to be– DD: It used to be–
DD: It used to be. And I also believe that disconnect is that the LGBTQ+ community doesn't think that they could be us, right? Like there's no– there's no passion to be involved in law enforcement because their whole lives they’ve been told that you're not going to fit in and they go to different career paths. By us being out there and being in uniform and doing these events, though– all I– all I feel every time I walk a parade or march an event, as I'm walking it, is there somebody out on the sideline saying, “Ugh, I wanna be just like Dave, or I want to be just like John, or I want to be just like Connor, and if they're doing it, I can do it.” And that's really the inspiration but there is that disconnect. There's a reason why there's not a lot of LGBTQ+ people involved in law enforcement and it's not because they can't do it. It's because they don't want to do it, or they don't feel like they're going to be accepted, um, once they enter it even in 2020.
JK: Uh, great. I think we'll sort– circle back around to that a couple other follow-up questions I have just in terms of–
00:31:10
DD: You know, if I– if you don’t mind, I didn't get the chance ever to hear Connor’s coming out story.
CJ: Hahahah
JK: That's where I was going next. We are all on the same page. Um, so you all get to sip on your coffee and your water now while we, uh, while we t– uh, focus the light on Connor. Um, yeah so, I mean I think it's just kind of how the conversation evolved.
CJ: Yeah
JK: Is there that conversation around– CJ: Yeah
JK: You know as first firsts and then those coming out kinds of stories, and then the culture of what it means to go into something, um, so I think my curiosity is– is more around like, what was your journey to your finding your true identity? In your life? And maybe then how he said– I mean you all seem to express that law enforcement was something that was on– from early on, was on your radar, um, so yeah, so I mean, you know, whether it's like– are you wrestling with those two things simultaneously? And, you know–
CJ: Yeah I mean I– I– so when I was younger I used to play cops and robbers with my cousins and I was always a little boy. I never never saw myself as a little girl as any– as anyone else might have seen me. And so I, you know, and I played with my little my boy cousins. They are close to me, close to me in age, they live right down the street, we play guitar together and grew up together. So they were like– they were like my best friends– So that's– I grew up with them. And I just always saw myself as one of the guys with them and all the kids on the block that we played with– cops and robbers all that stuff you know. Halloween– I was a Bobby for Halloween 'cause I couldn't– I still have the pictures, um– So you know, I mean– I didn't– I didn't necessarily know from an early age that I wanted to be in law enforcement. I knew I wanted to do something that was going to help people 'cause that's– that was my drive and it sounds cliché. That's really why we all get into it, um, but it wasn't until college that I decided to study criminal justice, um, after I– I met a friend who opened up to me and she told me how she was abused from age 6 to 12 by her stepfather physically, sexually abused. Um, some really horrible stuff and from then on I was like I need to get into law enforcement. I need to protect people like her who couldn't protect themselves. Um, and I think that– that kind of translates to the trans thing too because sometimes, being trans, you feel like you can't protect yourself because you don't know who you are, if that makes sense. So I didn't– I actually came out a couple times. I thought I was a lesbian for awhile because I was a female, you know, that was my “biological gender”. So– And I grew up Irish Catholic. Went to church every Sunday, before soccer. And, you know, went to college and, you know, kind of fell off on that but I got a girlfriend and got up the courage to tell my mom after talking to my sister, I was like, “I gotta tell her.” And I was terrified because you know Irish Catholic it wasn't– wasn't accepted being gay. So I went and I told my mom and her response was it made her sad. And I was like– for two days I didn't talk to her, I ran away– You know, I mean, I was, you know, 19 at the time so– so I was, you know, old enough to be on my own, but I went to my buddies house I stayed there for a couple days. And finally she got– she got a hold of me and she told me, you know, it made her sad because she, you know, my dad, like I said, he was a professional dancer. He had a lot of gay friends, and it wasn't an easy life growing up. So she didn't want that for me, and that's the only reason why it made her sad. It wasn't necessarily she didn't accept it or– or whatever. So that was the first time I came out! So after going through school and just struggling I, you know, I really didn't know who I was. I didn't see myself as a quote-unquote lesbian. I didn't understand why girls didn't, who were lesbians, didn't want to dress like a guy and didn't see themselves in that masculine role. So I had some difficulties understanding what was going on in my own head. At one point I decided, you know, I needed to go see a psychologist so I went to the psychologist at the college, and she told me I was transgender after explaining how I felt and, you know, growing up, who I was. I didn't– I felt insulted, um, I'm going to use this just because this is what I said. I said, “Eff you! I'm not a tranny.” And that's how I felt 'cause I didn't understand it, I didn't know what it meant to be transgender, um.
JK: But you knew– but you did have, at the time, a cultural concept of–
CJ: The only cultural concept I had of it was– Basically it was more like a drag kind of concept. It wasn't a transgender concept. It was more like, you know, a guy at a drag show dressing up like a– like a woman and that's– that was my– I didn't– I didn't have a real concept. It was whatever I saw in like you know The Birdcage, you know, something like that, you know, it wasn't– it wasn't like what a trans person is and who I am because I– I was– I am trans. Um, so I mean I– I saw myself as a straight guy my whole life and now she finally tells me that, “Hey, you are and this is why,” um, and that's when I kind of started wrapping my head around that. Um, but knowing that I wanted to be in law enforcement, I decided I was going to stay my biological gender and that I couldn't transition, because I couldn't be a trans person and be a law enforcement officer. I just– it was impossible. It was bad enough being gay or lesbian in the law enforcement field that– that's just like a whole– there's no way. I really just didn't think it was possible. So I continued–
JK: Around what year was this? So you were 19 when you met with the therapist?
CJ: Um, yeah so I actually– yes, I was probably, I think it would say it was 2000– 7, 2008, um–
JK: Ok.
CJ: I think it was 2008 actually, cause it was like right before I graduated, um, I’d just broke up with my ex girlfriend
00: 37:12
JK: So the moment he's walking on stage being outed in front of 2000 people you are–
CJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly! Uh, the timeline matches up with–
JH: It’s destiny!
CJ: Yeah so, um, so I left school. I got a– I got a job at a shoe company, and I just kind of stayed in my own little closet as a quote-unquote lesbian. Um, I knew I was trans– I just stayed my former self because I didn't think that I could be, and I also had this weird thing in my head where, you know, God made me this way for a reason; I’m not going to change that. The whole, you know, growing up Irish Catholic thing, you know, that's just kind of ingrained in your head: the Catholic guilt. And, you know, I like– I mentioned before I was named after my– my grandmother, I didn't want to lose that either, I had never got to meet her. All my aunts and uncles say I was exactly like her so just features wise, and how, you know, expressions, and how I acted so, you know, I didn't want to lose that either so there was a little bit of a family element in that as well. Um, and then I met my ex-girlfriend who– awesome person. I knew her for years before we started dating and I came out to her as trans and she was like, “I know.” And I was like, “How the heck did you know? What do you mean?” She was like, “I could just tell by the way you act– you– your– I don't see you as the female version other people might see. I see you as Connor. I see you as the male that you are.” And that was the first time that anyone was ever like– they got me and I just from then on I felt comfortable with her and worked through a lot of things with her. And, you know, although our relationship together didn't didn't work, you know, she's still a huge influence on– on– on me and accepting me and she was actually the one that pushed me, you know, cause I was still– I was miserable. I hated myself. I hated who I saw in the mirror and, you know, I was in corrections and she just sat me down one night and she was like, “Dude, you are not going to feel okay until you do this. You need to transition.”
So finally I was like, “You know, what you're right,” and decided, you know, my parents were in England at the time, they were on a vacation, and I decided I needed to be Connor. I need to be he. I need to be this– this is who I need to be for the rest of my life because this is who I am. Um, so my parents came back from England and they're giving out gifts because, you know, they got all this stuff for us and, you know, this is– this is great we're having a good time and then you have to spoil it by telling them all, “By the way, I'm Connor now, and I want to be referred to as he. And I'm going to transition.” So the first thing my mother says, “Well can I still call you Claire?” And I was like, “No! That's the whole point!” I was like, “I’m not– I never was Claire. I was always Connor. Just that– that name was given to me because of, you know, my grandmother gave me that name, I love the name, but this is who I really am.” And actually my dad was the one who was like, “Pam no! He's Connor!” Like– and he got it right away and I think he always– like I was always with my dad. I was, you know, when he was working on the house, I was always right next to him swinging a hammer. I always wanted to do the guy thing. So I think he– he kind of– when I came out and the wheels started turning was like wow this makes so much sense.
00: 40:23
So that's kind of how I came out with my family. Um, so for a couple of years, I mean, I was still in the jail. The jail is not a very open environment. Um, just– there's something different about, um, law enforcement on the street and law enforcement in corrections. It's just– it's hard to explain, but I did not feel comfortable coming out to many people within the correction, the correctional facility. Um, I was actually assaulted by an inmate in 2014, um, and, you know, from then on, I got a lot of respect from a lot of the corrections officers because I held my own, you know– got the– got the inmate, you know, in handcuffs. We got through it and I– I– I guess I did pretty well. Um, so, you know, I had a lot of respect with the– the COs from then on, but I just didn't feel like I could come out. You know, we had a trans inmate come in, and they put her on the men's block, and the things that they were saying about her in muster– You know, I couldn't put myself in. You know, I know a lot of the COs now that would be like, “Well dude that was an inmate and we wouldn't say that about you.” But, guess what, you still said it about a trans person so why would I think that? If you're– if you're saying things like you know “chick with a dick” to about an inmate, what makes me any different? So I never came out in corrections and I still had this– I really really wanted to transition, but I needed to wait.
Um, so I got the job in Morristown and I was already Connor in my home life. I was he in my home life, but I maintained this secondary life with my law enforcement– family. And, you know, a lot of– a lot of the people I actually am working with now I went to high school with, so they knew me and I hung out with them outside of law enforcement. So they knew I was transitioning, they knew I was going to transition and I was, you know, gonna do hormone therapy and all of it. So they, you know, Morristown had an idea that this is what they're taking on, so when I got hired, there was never really a question, you know, I mean obviously they wouldn't ask me that outright anyway but, you know, it wasn't it– wasn't like, “Can he do his job?” You know, I wanted to prove to them that I could so I waited a year before I actually came out to anybody. Um, but I remember in field training, I think I told you guys this the other day, um, I was, uh, in field training for, you know, that's– when we get off out of the Academy you go into field training you have certain officers that you work with. We have, you know, a couple different officers that you work with. And I was super confident going in. I had already three and a half years in the jail, so I knew how to talk to people. I had– had pretty good verbal judo and I was– I was doing really well– And then all of a sudden, I started second guessing myself and just my confidence level was going down and my FTO– one of my– one of the good FTOs, I mean, yeah—they're all great—but like, he just kind of felt–
00: 43:30
JK: Could you just– What's an FTO?
CJ: Sorry, Field Training Officer(FTO) JK: Great! thank you!
CJ: Yeah one of my field training officers was like, “Dude what's wrong with you? What's going on?” And I just– I– I couldn't tell him. I didn't want to tell him there that I was trans, but I was like, “You know, I'm just not confident in my own skin.” And he's like, “Well dude, you need to have confidence in this job.” And I was like, “You didn't get it, man. That's not what I meant.” I have confidence, it's just when I look in the mirror every day, when I go to that job and someone calls me she, it– it breaks a little bit of my heart every single time that that happens. So, you know, I had this– this authority over certain situations, but then they would call me she and it made me feel so little. So it was kind of like a really– it was super conflicting emotionally.
JK: What was the– I mean you had said that you had kind of come out to your– kind of your personal life first, and then were you actively pursuing elements of transition in your personal life? Either–
CJ: So I decided to wait with that because of the job. I wanted, like I said, I wanted to solidify that– not solidify, but like I wanted to prove to the department that I could do my job well and it didn't matter if I was trans or lesbian or straight or cisgender, whatever, it didn't matter. I was officer Johnson and I was good at my job. That's all I wanted them to know. So I waited a year and then finally I was like, “I can't do this anymore,” and started hormone therapy. Um, I came out to that field training officer and I was on the verge of tears, he could tell. It was like– he's like, “It's fine. It doesn't matter. You do your job every day and you go home safe, that's all that matters.” So, you know, once– once I started, you know, the hormone therapy, once I came out to everybody, you know, it took awhile obviously for the name change and the gender change; that doesn't happen overnight. And, you know, it– teaching the guys as well, and girls, what it– what it's like to be transgender, you know, like that– that was the biggest thing. Like a lot of them didn't– had never met a trans person let alone a trans police officer and a coworker. So now, you know, they had to go from calling me– when I started I asked them to call me CJ 'cause it was gender neutral and I knew this was going to happen. So, you know, they called me CJ, but there was still some guys out of, uh, you know, quote-unquote “respect” that would call me Claire because that was my name on the documents. And, you know, even though I was out, they didn't realize that that actually hurts a little bit more than you just call me CJ because that's what I prefer to be called. So that education had to be kind of, you know, it's hard to do with the whole entire department too, you know, but it's a discussion that you have to have with each person every single time it happens. And then, you know, when the gender changes if they're like, “Okay, yeah, we still slip up,” and I always tell everyone, you know, I told my family this, I tell all the guys in the department, it's not just a transition for me it's a transition for everybody and I can't blame you cause you knew me coming in as she even though in my mind I was already in that transition phase. They knew me as she, so if somebody says, “She,” and, “Dude, I'm sorry, he,” I can't get mad at that. You know, as long as they make that effort to– to refer to me in the right pronoun, with the right pronouns, you know, my name, you know, that's all I can really ask. Um, and it's actually that I find it harder dealing with people on the street who I saw every day, you know, on foot patrols and stuff like that where they saw me, you know, before I had transitioned with more female features and now I had top surgery and, you know, I’ve been on testosterone for almost three years, so I look a little bit more masculine. And, you know, they're like, “Oh, you know, Officer Johnson, she's one of the best officers!” And I'm like, “Well it's– you know, it's actually he,” and they're like– like some people get really like, “Oh my God I'm so sorry.” And I'm like, “Don't worry about it. Like, if it makes you feel better, I'm in a transition.” And It confuses people but it also kinda clears it up for most. Like, you know, I found I actually said that to one of my– of a lady who I just had always seen on a job and she's like, “What?” And just didn't get it she was like, “Well so are you, he?” And I'm like, “I’m he,” and I just kind of left it at that because she was 70 something and it didn't– it didn't matter, she wasn't going to get it.
00:47:54
So, um, yeah it's– the guys in the department are awesome. I mean, you know, it's the biggest reason why I want to do this is because understanding is huge and unless someone's out there to tell you and educate, you can't understand. So the lack of understanding is where the fear comes as well. Like I had a Sergeant in the jail, one of the only people I came out to, and I changed his entire view on transgender people. And to this day he still sends me text messages saying, “Thank you. You know, it really means a lot that you, one, felt that you could come out to me, and, two, that you educated me on this subject because now I'm way more accepting of trans people and I understand it more.” So just like that– that's the biggest thing right there. I mean, even if I just get one or two people to understand better and just treat– treat people with the respect that they deserve.
JK: Um, so I have a couple of questions and I think that it– these are like, you know, whoever wants to answer them. You’ve all expressed some stories about what it means to kind of be the first or kind of the vanguard, you know, in certain kinds of stories. What has been your– what has been your experience with– with having to be the person who goes around educating an entire department about what transgender is? Or coming out of– being the first person coming out of the closet or–
CB: You are in my brain
JK: There's a– have you felt that at as, um– Has it been an honor? Has it been a weight of responsibility? As–
JH: It's been a gift. JK: Yeah? CJ: Yeah.
JH: Flat out gift. For me personally, I want to be able to reach out to recruits, um, and have them not feel that sense of loneliness that I felt twenty years ago, not knowing that there's anybody else like me. You know, I mean I was in a dark place back then because I was in a closet and I was afraid to come out because I was the only one. I didn't know, you know, I had– there's other– others like me. That we could have that internal support network at work, which is so huge. That's one of the reasons why we actually had this liaisons group too, it’s for us as well. But it's really an honor to be able to do that and actually to have a voice. I've got friends that are trans, you know, besides Connor. And one of our troopers, as a liaison he, you know, he came to me and he said hey, you know, his sisters trans. And I hear some lashing out at a training program and there's a training video and there were some things said and I looked at him, I said, this is some several years ago, and I said, “Listen, he says one more thing and I’m pulling him outside. We're going to have a conversation.” ‘Cause it's– there needs to be some education and I think that's really what it is. It’s education. I really think that's the hardest thing to do was really just educate everybody because it's– it's the unknown, you know, especially South Jersey. I always say there's two different states and I've covered them all. I’ve worked from South Jersey all the way up to Bergen County, Warren County all the way down to Cape May. And it's– it's really a different state. It really is– And I think South Jersey's really– really I wouldn't say backwoods, but they're– they’re behind the times, I would say, in our culture and LGBT history and stuff like that and issues and stuff. So for us, Dave and I are actually, and actually Connor too– Next month we're going down to teach a supervision school in Gloucester County regarding culture and diversity in law enforcement
DD: I didn't even know they let gay people in Gloucester County The Room: hahahahaha
CJ: Is it like a vampire thing we have to be invited in? DD: I'm not sure.
JK: With the state police cruiser–
JH: But I mean I've been a detective almost my entire career, but for me it's more like an honor just for us to actually have a voice and be able to do something good. I want to leave the outfit that was founded in 1921 way better than when I came in. And I want to have that legacy where, you know what, if another recruit comes in, they’re going to be comfortable with being themselves, being out—no issues whatsoever. It's just going to be another day, another conversation. It doesn't have to be gay, straight, cisgender, trans. It’s just a human being. That's what I want.
00:52:10
JK: So– Sorry. Go ahead.
CB: So I think my question is along those lines, but then– So it's not only the education of an entire department, but then you're educating them where they're going to go into the public and the stakes are so much higher. And I'm just curious about the weight of that responsibility then also. So it's not just about their colleagues, it's also about them dealing with the general public, I think is my question–
JH: That's where we have been very very lucky, Dave and I, and even Connor as well, to have a voice. So we've been working with the attorney general's office to create the Directive 2019-3, which takes effect June 1st. Um, and it's regarding the transgender community and nonbinary, um. We're actually having a block of instruction coming out very soon. It's gonna be online learning for all 35,000 cops in New Jersey. Connor’s in it, I’m in it, Dave is in it– So we're very blessed to be part of that.
So yeah is it– it's– it's definitely not a burden, it's more, like I said, a blessing, but it's something that's weighted on us. These are all collateral duties– I run a high profile unit. I've got several different jobs in the state police, liaison is one of them. Dave is a chief, being the liaison is just one of many jobs that he does. Connor is a police officer, being the liaison is just one of many duties that he has. So it's– it's a lot of different collateral duties that we do, but we do it because we have the passion for it; we want to do it. We want to make things better, that's why we do it.
DD: I'll add to John– I agree with the sentiment of John and Connor absolutely about everything they’ve said so far. I do– I do, though, at times feel frustrated. And so there's a frustration– I am very honored to be that guy. That first ever state correctional officer that was male, that was gay; first ever gay cop in Asbury Park, the first ever chief investigator– I’m– there's a proudness that comes with that. But there's also a responsibility that comes along with it too. And I think I feel responsible that it's my job, being the first, to go out there and educate and not only educate but, um, create a level of understanding. I always say this and I’ve said it many times, I don't– I don't think we use this word acceptance too much. I'm not asking anybody to accept me. I'm not asking anybody to look through my lens or to think about what it's like to be in my bedroom at night intimately. What I'm saying is that, as a law enforcement professional, that we have to understand what it's like not [to] accept and we have to understand. And so when we take an oath– our oath goes something like, depending on what department you work for, “I swear to protect and serve every resident of….” Not just the ones that are my skin color, or my sexual orientation, or my ethnic background, or my national origin, or my gender– everybody. And so its incumbent upon us as law enforcement professionals to understand what it's like to be the victim, to understand what it's like to come to somebody for help, um, because that's what we love to do.
00:55:05
DD: You know, as corny as it sounds, Connor mentioned this: I took this job 'cause I like to help people. I wanted to be that hero that helped my grandfather, and helped my grandmother, and my family that day. And helped me keep my family together that day– and so I also wanted to be that person that helps that person that doesn't see that they could be the chief someday, or the trooper someday, or the police officer someday, or the correction officer someday, that you can do it. So– but it's frustrating and I had this conversation recently with a new New York City LGBT out officer I said– and I said it hastily but I meant it, you guys are standing on our shoulders. If it wasn't for the firsts then you couldn't come in and have this level of understanding that you have right now. And because you're doing what you're doing, understand the struggles that all of us have went through to get there and there have been many. There has been many! And they're still going on. We're so fortunate and I'm not– and I don't want to make this political, but this is the first time in my thirty one years of law enforcement that we've had such a support from leadership. The attorney general. That's huge! When– when– when officers like being told what to do or were very directive, you know, moving forward, and for the leader to say this is what you're going to do and this is why you're going to do it, gives credence to why we do what we do every day. And so, take the politics out of it, we're fortunate to be working in a state that has that leadership, that sees that vision, that understands the message that we're trying to bring forward. And it's not just with the LGBTQ plus community, it’s with every diverse community. And that's a big plus but it's frustrating. It's frustrating because you hear those—even tonight in 2020—you hear the negativity, you hear the non-understanding, you hear certain members of your profession that just don't get it, don't understand it. But not only don't get it and don’t understand it, don't want to and that's the frustrating part. They're not willing to break that ignorance. They just want to keep on thinking what they think.
JK: Thank you for that. Um, uh– one question I had which was– it's kind of a technical thing. It's like when you– when you– when folks are talking about like dealing with these kinds of issues and like, let's say, a corporate setting. You talk a lot about the human resources process, right? And you talk about and– a lot of corporations now they have a set human resources process where actually a lot of the burden of education is put on the corporation or human resources not on the individual. And I was just curious, is there a way– I mean I don't know if you have– if you have a way of comparing that for someone who doesn't understand the process of what you all went through in a law enforcement agency versus like the corporate you know– world–
00:58:02
DD: Well even in government agencies, there's a human resource, and there's policies and procedures, and there's training that goes on with cultural diversity and–
JH: Laws against discrimination–
DD: Laws against discrimination, there's all that's still in place. I think once you come out, then you're looked to as that person. Right? So now, not only are the leaders, the chiefs, the attorney general looking to you, so are your colleagues. So I'll piggy back on a comment that both Connor and John, uh, made. There's not a week that goes by that I don't get a call from somebody that I know that says, “Hey Dave,” and not even in my department—sometimes in my department—but, “Hey Dave, my son just told me that they're gay and I don't know what to do and I need your help.” “Hey Dave, my daughter just told me that she is transgender or wants to be he and transgender and what to do.” And so– coupled with that there have been phone calls that I've gotten from friends and straight colleagues that said, “If it wasn't for you, I would never accept my brother. I wouldn't even have a conversation with him. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't want to know about what it's like to walk in a gay person’s shoes. You changed that for me.” And I think that that– that pride that John mentioned, I take pride in that. I take pride in having my finger on the pulse of trying to create that– that space where other cops feel comfortable calling me, you know, so that I can help them and educate them.
JH: I mean I'm sure, I'm without a doubt sure, that there's officers that are talking negatively about our community and about us and you know what? We don't care.
CJ: Doesn't matter– JH: You know, I mean it really comes down to what we– if we can help you.
JH: I mean I had I had a sergeant that actually came to me and said that a family member was LGBT and what do I do? And I showed him some videos and stuff like that. I'm also one of our regional peers so I do a lot of peer work. And this past weekend I took– my husband and I took him and his wife out to their first ever gay bar in Philadelphia just to say, “Hey listen, this is what it's like.” Like, Oh wow, it's a bar! Yeah! It’s a bar! OK, it’s a bar! There is alcohol! You know–
The room, JK: (hahahahahaha)
JH: It so happened it was actually a drag show too, and I was kind of like yes! Yes! So they got to see their first drag show, and it was eye opening, and they’re like, “Wow, okay, now I understand. You know, I– I see this.” So it's just really cool to be able to do that.
60:00:43
DD: You know, if I may, the other thing too, with our profession, with the stressors that come along the job– The last stressor anybody ever wants to have is wondering whether or not they're going to get support backup from their colleagues. We are number one in a lot of things in law enforcement, and we are number one in suicide. And so, if we can just create a level of understanding that cops can reach out and talk to somebody, or talk to us, that is so– that's even more huge to me than rebuilding trust with the community because, if– we can't rebuild trust in the community if we can’t trust each other. So I think that that's important to recognize that.
JK: Um, is– Going back to something we’ve– we– All three of you have spoken about a lot of like cultural symbols, like we talked about drag, and we've talked about like, you know, Will and Grace, and we talked about like those kinds of things– So what happens– What is the– what is the– is there a wave of understanding or conversation that's happened? You’ve kind of articulated– like what's the next kind of wave of cultural understanding? So, here's my example: you both identify as masculine, if we talk about in terms of gender–
JH: Well– DD: Till’ I get a couple drinks in me. CJ: LOL
JK: So– so what– where, you know, culture, in terms of gender, is moving towards this concept of spectrum and now understand– trying to understand the individuals who do not exist on the binary. So in terms of the– that community, what is the next– is there a wave of that? Where the “Jacks” of the world can go into law enforcement without– without– as long as they're meeting the physical and the educational intellectual requirements?
JH: That's our job. That really is our job to find the “Jacks”– To find the– whoever is able and wants to be a police officer, um, and to be open and be true to who you are, no matter how you identify: if your fem, masculine, doesn't make a difference. I don't care as long as you can do the job.
DD: You said something very important. In our profession, no matter what you are or who you are, you still have to qualify. And so we're not lowering the standards to accept anybody. But it's very important that– that any diverse community recognizes that they can meet those standards, and that's the important part of it. Uh, when you talk about that cultural shift change, I gotta tell you, you know, up until there were shows like Will And Grace or Queer Eye For The Straight Guy, sexual orientation wasn't always talked about because Hollywood and TV and movies put that dialogue together that helped us talk about it. It was in the closet or it was you didn't talk about that, or these were things you didn't mention. And now here comes the media, and they push it out there, and now people are having conversations about it. I personally, I know of a transgender officer in Hoboken. I was lucky enough to be the president *Not discernable* New Jersey at the time, and there was a captain who was a John and was going through these debilitating headaches and wasn't able to function and do his job anymore and he left and he came back as Janet. And I’ll never forget getting a phone call from the police chief of Hoboken at the time, “Dave I need your help. What are we going to do?” And boom! I was like, “I don't know what you're going to do because I don't know anything about being transgender.” And that forced me to educate myself but– and fast forward, and I’m interested to know if Connor agrees with me on this– I don't think transgender would be talked about as much if it wasn't for, um–
JH: RuPaul?
DD: No no
CB: Caitlyn Jenner
DD: Caitlyn Jenner! Caitlyn Jenner opened up that conversation. Went out there and started that dialogue. Obviously, before Will and Grace there was LGBTQ people in the world, but nobody talked about it. Obviously there were transgender people in the world and nobody talked about it until Bruce Jenner put it out there, and now we're having this conversation. So, same thing with the other spectrum, non-binary, and I don't know – John and I just talked about like– one of our last police trainings, somebody asked– a cop asked us to identify, “Tell me what that means?” I was stumped. I didn't– I didn't do my research, I wasn't aware of it, I didn't know. And so we're now educating ourselves about what it's like to be non-binary, what nonbinary. So that process evolves and it evolves because of society and because of the media and because of us coming out and saying who we are and wearing that flag. People tell me all the time that, “You’re that gay guy that wears that rainbow flag all the time.” I’m like, “I don't have a choice.” I don't– I can't go– I don't want to go back in the closet and I'm proud to wear the rainbow flag, but I'm also very very proud to be a thirty-one-year-long law enforcement professional. And I’m even more proud to have risen to the rank of chief. Um, with all those things that I went through. Lieutenant, with all things you went through. Officer, with all the things that you went through from corrections to police, and now even dealing with what you're dealing with as a trainer officer so– It's just, we're very proud.
60:06:10
JH: I think it's generational though too. I mean it’s a little different, in our day I think now it's just–
CJ: It's coming out more– JH: It's coming out–
JH: It's– it's OK to be open. It’s okay to be true and I think you should be able to be true–
JK: Is there a way for you to like articulate like what is the– what is– and what is the generational response? Like, what is it? What does it mean if there's someone in the ranks who's in their fifties, how are they going to respond versus someone in their thirties? Or someone who's, you know, right out–
JH: We call them dinosaurs. Okay?
DD: I agree! I agree! I agree! I agree! But, I gotta tell you, there are guys, and gals, who are older and still on the job. If they know somebody. If somebody in their family is LGBTQ plus, there's not an issue. They get it, they understand it. And that's why I think the generational– everybody now, if you ask somebody, “Hey do you have somebody in your family that’s gay? Do you happen to know somebody that is gay or lesbian?” Every hand goes up. That wasn't the same way in 1989 when I came out–
JH: Or if they did have somebody, they wouldn't raise their hand. They’d be embarrassed.
DD: They’d be embarrassed by it. And I think that that's the same thing now. Even today with the so-called dinosaurs. If somebody hasn't had contact or been educated, they're going to go back to what they know. But to somebody that has, it's no big deal. So it's really– it teaches us it's all about education. It’s all about having that conversation of breaking those walls–
JH: It’s geographical too, though. Like I said, two different states. I know people that– that bring their family to Asbury Park so their kids can see all the culture and be able to be– hey listen this is what– this is what people, this is who people are. Like embrace it and I mean Cumberland County doesn't have that.
DD: When there's– when I was– when I came back to Jersey, and I say this all time– There's two reasons why I chose to live in Highland Park, and I chose to live there. I searched out Highland Park. Number one in diversity, number two is there police department. And those were the reasons I went there. And I– I– I couldn't live in Asbury Park, cause it was out of County. I had to pick somewhere in Middlesex County. And the diversity, the inclusion, the acceptance, it was there. So that's– people move to place because of that. So maybe-
JH: That's why I moved to Asbury. CJ: That's part of the reason why I went to Morristown in law enforcement. Because I knew that it was so diverse and they wouldn't necessarily judge me for–
60:08:28
DD: So you chose Morristown–
CJ: I mean sort of, yes. I mean, I applied to a ton of different departments and it's– I mean, you know how it is about getting a job anyway. But I just– I got lucky getting an address in Morristown and getting the job in Morristown because I knew it wasn't going to be a problem for me to come out as trans. Whereas if, you know– I applied to the Port Authority PD– and it didn't work out. And it's probably a better– it's probably better that it didn't, because who knows how that would have been on that end.
JK: The, uh, and in terms of that, it's like, you know, in terms of that– that space– So, you know, you’ve all articulated that there are certain communities, that are going to– their certain communities, there are certain generations, there are certain demographics that are going to be a little bit more on the leading edge than others, but in terms of like, um, your experience in Morristown– You had mentioned– it drew me back to– you had mentioned that moment of, in essence, coming out to your superior. What were the next steps? Like what– like what were things that you could recommend? Like, either do this! Or, don't do this! Right? If you are a department that finds yourself in a similar situation, like, what would you– what would you recommend as being a positive experience for you or a negative one?
CJ: Well, I kinda, you know, I kinda just assumed everyone knew after I told my chief. So I didn't necessarily go up to every single guy and say, “Hey man, I'm trans.” Um, you know, I didn't send out a departmental-wide email. You know, like I said, a lot of the guys that I worked with I knew outside of law enforcement as well, so they all knew anyway. But I came out to my chief– after I– after I told my FTO, “Hey this is what's going on.” He was like, “That’s awesome.” He's like, you know, ‘How do you want me to refer to you,” asked me all the questions. I told my immediate supervisors. I told my– I told my chief and then, kind of from there, I mean, you have a whole other side of the department that works on days you’re off. So I– I should– what I should have done was something a little bit more. I'm not sure exactly what, I was still, you know, fairly new. I had only been a year on the job, so I was still doing my job, and the whole trans thing– I was more focused on actually transitioning. I didn’t really care if guys knew necessarily, you know. Like now, you know, we have all this training coming out and I'm involved in the training, um, just because I met these two gentlemen, and I'm so lucky that I have because now I can have a better vision of where to go if a department does have that issue, because I don't think I did it right. I don't think our department did it right. I wish I– I wish I had sat everyone down and said, “Hey listen, this is what it's all about,” and kind of educated. And now we have the training to do that, and with the directive coming out that's going to be something we will be doing. So there was– there was definitely some struggles with, you know, correcting people on, you know, whether it's official or not. It doesn't matter if it's official on paper, this is who I am and this is how I want to be referred so, please, do that, you know. And that's– it's hard to do when you’re lowest on the totem pole, to tell a captain or a chief, “Hey…no…”
DD: You are right.
CJ: “…It's actually this.” And because, one, you're talking about rank, and, two, there's a lot of type A personalities, so if you if you have the rank, and you're lonely patrolman, do you go to that captain or chief and say, “Hey, listen, you're wrong it's actually this.”? And what do they say? “You know, well on paper it says this, so….” Yeah, you know, that– that was the biggest– biggest hurdle with, you know, just getting people to understand. And now with this directive coming out, it's going to help those guys understand. Because a lot of our job is what is on paper, what is official.
60:12:09
CJ: Um, I had– I had a friend who was a social worker. She told me about one of her clients who, trans female, has been, you know, in and out of trouble but okay for I think it's like nine years or something like that. But she was still male on her license, male name, and was terrified because she found out she had a warrant for her arrest and didn't know what to do. So I helped her out. My department invited her in to turn herself in, gave her a new court date, called her by her proper name, her gender—despite what it said on her license—and that's– that's where we're taking the right steps. You know, just– and that's before this directive’s coming out. You know, me telling these guys, “Hey this is what's going on,” and educating them through that process; it opens up their eyes to other things. I had another officer come up to me and say, ‘Hey, the other day I went to one of the Comic Cons,” we have all the, you know, at the Hyatt hotel, you know. They went to one of the Comic Con events and one of the individuals there had an issue, and it was clearly a trans male, and he could just– he could tell because he had met me, and he could tell by the mannerisms and how uncomfortable– And he went up to him and said, “Listen,” you know, he said, “what pronouns do you use? What name do you go by? Do you want to talk in private?” And that made a world of difference to that person 'cause they were like, “yes,” and “thank you,” and just the consideration of knowing. But the only reason they know is because they know me. So like that's– that's– that's huge for me. That's– that's why I'm doing this because if I– if I only have the reach of my department, that's not helping anyone else. That's just helping us. And we're already so diverse, they would have figured it out eventually, you know. But now I can spread that out and kind of share the wealth as it were.
JK: It's an– it's also– it's like– It's those two. It's the dynamic of both, um, the support or the training of the education that happens within the department to take care of each other, and then how that then affects how you're engaging, then, with the outside community, right? So– so– so I guess my question is: do you kind of have it– do you have an answer to that question? That idea, like, what has to happen internally? I mean you’ve answered it a lot, but it's like, what are some of– like what's the first next step? What's the next right thing to do?
JH: It's really just community outreach. I mean if you go back to proudly–
DD: I agree
JH: And, well, that was our first ever time talking to a transgender group. Okay? This was before we met Connor, so–
CB: You wouldn't have known
JH: So, and I'm like, well, you know we're not trans. Okay? We're LGBT, okay, you know, in the community, but I said, at the end, I don't know if you realize this, but there was a trans person that came up and said, “Can I be a cop?” And I was like, “Absolutely you can be a cop!” And now that we have Connor, which Connor is going to be a freaking superstar because–
CJ: I'm not
JH: I want Connor to go back and like, “Yes!” It doesn’t matter how you identify, you can be a police officer. That's huge.
DD: Yeah, and I think the next step for every, for law enforcement, the career itself, the profession itself, is just recognizing that we have to change. And a lot of times law enforcement doesn't want to change, right? We are type A personalities, we’re– we have direction and we've done it this way for so long and it worked, why should we have to change? And I think that that change is– is a part of understanding the next step. We have to change. We have to understand that even though it worked before, right now we have a more diverse community, and a more diverse society and the LGBT community demands respect. And we're public servants, the uh– the– the public is our customer–
JH: Yeah
60:15:53
DD: You know? And that's one of the things that I think– It's just creating a level of – So, next? Would I have done things different in the past? Of course, knowing what I know now, but not what I knew then. I think there was only one to do it then. Knowing what I know now, I think I would have done things a little bit better and we're working on that: policies, directives, education, training, community outreach. That was, like– I am so sorry. I always remember faces, I never remember names. I can't believe that I didn't remember you from there, I’m so sorry–
CB: No no no, it’s– there was a lot–
JH: It's one thing to teach police, all right? But we also need to teach the community about the stigma of police as well.
CJ: Yes, absolutely! DD: That’s huge! CJ: Absolutely!
JH: You know, because there is still a distrust. So it goes both ways.
CJ: Well just what you said, but with that trans person coming up to you and saying, “Hey can I be a police officer?” You know, that was a big question in my mind too. I just said screw it, I'm doing it, I don't care. You know, but I– now that I'm in that position, I can show that person, “Yeah! Heck yeah! You can be a freaking cop dude, you can be whatever you want!”
JH: Up until the ‘70s, being trans meant, uh, uh, meant you had a, uh, mental disorder.
DD: Same thing with gay.
JH: I mean you’d never be a police officer back then, you know? Like, are you kidding me? Look at how far we've progressed.
CJ: And even, I'll be honest, even when I took psychs back in the day, that may be nervous. I thought they were going to see right through me and I would fail that psych exam because I was trans.
JH: I was off (in?) a critical incident 2003. I had to take a psych to come back on the job and one of the– one of the questions was, “was I straight?” And I actually had to lie because I wasn't out then. So on my report: “John Hayes appeared to be heterosexual....” Like are you kidding me? Why is that question on a psychological report? Why? What does that matter? No! it shouldn't, but it did. And to this day it may still be on there, I don't know.
JK: Hahahaha
CJ: But also with– I mean just– just with training though, like all those mistakes we're making are a good thing because it's teaching us a better way to do it now. I always– when I coach– I used to coach– everyone I, all those players, you know, you don't– you don't learn from winning games, you learn from losing. What can you do better? And if we continue to just be successful and not have pushback from people who are negative and are giving us, you know, bad reviews and, you know, treating us not how we should be treated, we're never going to have that push to keep going forward. We're just going to get complacent and not keep pushing to strive for better.
JK: Um, you were all kind of– you were all honest, kind of sharing some stories about your personal lives and then the conflicts between your personal and your professional lives, I was just curious, like, after, you know, if we say the– the coming out story and then find it and then going through that– that settling, like, how have your professional lives engaged with your personal lives since those points?
JH: I'll start. Uh, it's been outstanding. I've been with my husband now 15 years this May. So I've been very very blessed, can retire in a couple of years. But it really is a continuing coming out process. I mean, whenever you get transferred, you go to a new command staff, it's always coming out you know. The hard, “Oh yeah, there's a gay trooper,” they just don't know who it is, you know, there's 3000 of us– So it's a little different but it's just a continuing coming out process, and that's what people, a lot of people don't realize that. It's– no matter where you go– it's– they see wedding ring, “Oh what does your wife do?” Actually his name is Cliff–
The room: hahahaha
JH: And they are like, “Oh, uh, oh, okay.” So yeah, you drop the bomb on them, but yeah– It's a little different, but it's getting better, we just gotta educate people.
60:19: 28
DD: Yeah, I have nev– listen, I consider myself an okay cop. There's many things I’m not good at, one of them is relationships. And I think that the stressors of the job, um, and because I'm so invested in the job, um, because I’m so invested in the job, um, that takes away from my personal relationships. And so, I am now married, four years, and I'm very happily and lucky to be married. Um, but its– that marriage struggles because of the job, because I'm never home, and because I'm always doing something, I’m always working, or I'm always involved in something, the relationship struggles. And then especially being gay, and doing gay stuff, and your husband’s not a part of it, there's always this, “Oh what’s happening? What's going on? Who are you going to meet? Who–.” So that all plays a big part in it. I’m hoping that this is the last relationship, that it’s the only one, but I know that I've never been successful. So it does play a big role in our personal lives. And, and again, you said it best, I don't fit the stereotypical gay role, I’m masculine, so people say. So even in my personal life, getting to meet people, other gay guys would never think I was gay. So that is a hard, you know, it's a hard to try to even get to meet people, you know? And then, of course, then there's the flip side. I can’t tell you how many times women have told me that– the the reason I'm gay is because I haven't had their vagina I mean like what? Really?
CJ: Hahahahahaha DD: No no no uhh, no.
JH: We’ll edit that out. DD: You are editing that, so yeah
The room: Hahahahaahah JK: That will be the cover.
DD: In all these things, you know, there is hurdles, right? And you have to get through them and over them. I'm in a learning process. I'm 50 years old, in gay years, that's like dog years, I'm 102. So I'm thirty-one years on the job and I don't know how long I'm gonna be doing this job anymore, you know. I'm going to eventually “retire” retire, but I'm really, like, this is a learning process, all the time, you know, every day is a learning process. Even today, learning a little bit more about our team, Connor, it is a learning process. I love it! I love doing it and I'm passionate about it.
JH: You have to have a harder time than both of us, you know, what i’m saying?
CJ: I mean, yeah– I– you were talking about the group, you know, that you had what was it, last week or whatever it was? That they were talking about dating relationships being trans.
CB: Oh yeah.
CJ: I mean, I still haven't really figured that part out, you know. My ex-girlfriend, you know, she knew me for years before I started my transition so she always saw me as– as Connor so that, you know. But that, I don't want to date my ex girlfriend forever because she's my ex for a reason. So, you know, I don't know I mean I, me personally, I– I'm just happy finally just being the person that I see in the mirror now. Um, and you know it– it– it sucks, you know, having to explain it to people every once in a while, you know, what's going on or whatever. And, you know, people still misgender me every once in awhile and it's frustrating but, you know, I went to England, um, last month and not one person thought differently. Not one person misgend– and that was the first time in my entire life that I felt like me. So that, you know, that just kind of gave me a little bit– a good look into, you know, my– my future. I– Ultimately, I needed to be okay with myself before I could be okay with any other relationships. I mean my– my family life is– is great. My– my mom, my dad, my–all my aunts and uncles, which I have a ton, we are a Irish family, so, you know, it– it's my– even my grandmother, my– my only grandparent left, calls me Connor and he, and she goes to church Wednesdays and Sundays and I never thought that that was even possible. I used to have debates on whether gay people should get married with her. So the fact that she's opened up, and she has as, you know, accepted me, and I know you don't like the word accepted, but she, I mean, she has accepted me– is– is unreal. So I mean, the other stuff, you know, relationship wise, you know, it'll come later. I still gotta figure that out, you know. I'm personally a straight dude, so– so I– you go to a bar and you hit on a girl and then you gotta tell them, “Well…”
The Room: Hahahah
CJ: “…there's nothing in my pants so, where do you want to go from here?” I haven't figured that part out. So–
60:24:20
DD: The one great thing about being in law enforcement is that we all use jocularity to create understanding. So we– we are cynical when we talk about things. Um, Connor the one thing that I'll never– like I laughed so hard that night and laugh every time I think about it. When we talked about that, you know, when we talked about that joke that, you know–
CJ: Whatever size you want in the drawer.
DD: Yeah, yeah, right. It was just– it was just–it was really– I never thought about that struggle until you just said it. Wow.
CJ: Well ok. I mean, and I even had it– I had it when I was in college when I was a gay fe– I mean, I always– I’ve– every single girl that I dated was straight, every single one. And I figured it made sense when I was like oh I'm trans, that makes a lot of sense. And even– I even had one girl during the act say, “Wow you're just like a dude,” and I was like, “Sure am.” So I, you know, I mean I– again I still got– I'm 33 so, you know, it would be nice to– to figure it out sooner than later but, you know, it'll happen eventually. I'm just not super focused on that part of my life now. I like what I'm doing. I mean, law enforcement has been awesome. You know there's– there's always– always negative in law enforcement when you do– everything you go to, it's always someone in crisis or whatever, but this is the positive part and and whatever I can give back, and the feedback I get from people, that's what– that's what matters to me right now. So you know personal life isn't bad.
DD: We are all paying it forward. We really are. And I think that that– we get a great sense of pride about that.
JK: Is there any– or were there any– did you walk into the room today expecting to be asked anything that I haven't asked yet? Or any questions that you would ask yourself if you were in this situation?
JH,CJ, DD: No
JH: I think you did a pretty damn good job!
DD: Yeah! I didn’t know what to expect when I came in. CJ: I really didn't either.
DD: I didn't know if we were going to be just talking specifically about community, about training, or about what the A.G’s (Attorney General) doing, or what we're doing. I didn't realize it was going to be personal. I'm glad that it was, because I was much more comfortable, as you can see, talking about myself. I can't stop! Than we would be–
JH: Hahaha
DD: (you called me that for a reason) than we would be talking about, you know, these policies and things I have all in front of me, these notes. So I'm glad that it went this way.
60:26:50
JK: And I think part of it too is what you all already, intuitively know or not even intuitively what– you– you very– very specifically understand is like the training side of it. It's like you can put a policy or directive or– I can put– I can put a piece of factual information in front of someone's face. That's not necessarily going to change their perspective on why they have to do it, but once you go to the personal and once you– I mean that's part of what all of these projects are about, it's like no, these are real human beings. All of these stories are based on real human lives. Someone did actually experience that, oh wow.
JH: You know, one of the things that we’re doing, and it's because of that, is, you know, we just started the first ever LGBTQ workshop. It’s going to go on in July for the State Police Academy, and every single academy class going forward is going to have this workshop and to include us teaching it, and Connor. So every single recruit will get to have a conversation with a trans person. Never in New Jersey has that ever happened. So we are very very blessed to be able to do that, and we're looking to take that training program throughout the entire state, not just just you know my troopers, but every municipality in the state. So that's something that we're actually doing right now because, hey listen, have that conversation. How many times has somebody from Salem county actually had a conversation with someone that's trans? I mean right? Or might not know it?
CB: Might not know it.
JH: I mean so– so– so really there's– there's a stigma there.
CJ: I didn't even know. I had to educate myself and I was trans. I can't expect someone who's never met a trans person to be understanding and know everything about it, you know.
JH: So if there's a stigma there. Hey listen here's a ques– I have a question, let's ask. You know. Here we go, so that’s what we are do–
CJ: And I’m pretty open so you know. It works.
JH: Yeah, one Guinness later.
CJ: Hahahaha
JH: Do you have any remaining questions?
CB: I don't know that it’s a follow up question, as more of its an observation. In the first Trueselves, and it's a little different 'cause it's the personal and then the professional– in the first Trueselves, there was a quote from the play that said you know, “We don't want to have to live our lives being advocates for our lives every single day of our lives,” and I think it's interesting, that in this room, we have people who are advocating every single day, and I think that that's really important and I'm so glad that you are doing it.
DD, CJ: Thank you!
JH: We're actually glad that you're doing what you're doing ( CJ: Yeah, yeah) because, without that, there wouldn't be the message. So it wouldn’t be out there, so thank you very much.
DD: You now about the hurdles that we had to go through, all of us, to just come do this interview because of the bureaucracy of government–
CB: Yes.
JH: That’s why I was emailing you, because my command staff doesn’t get it.
DD: We wanted to do this so much earlier and we just had to go through all these hurdles. And so we're so glad that it is happening, and we're so glad that you're doing it, and we're partners, right? What you're doing is the same thing we're trying to do. We're partners in doing this, in educating. But we are very passionate about it and thank you for recognizing that (CB: You are welcome)
JH: You’re just putting your artist touch on. JH, CB: hahaha
JK: Yeah, so if there's– if there's no other parting comments or quotes, I want to be cognizant of time. It is right about 5:30 so I'll go ahead and stop the recorder now.
60:29:56